Justin: 00:32

Welcome, welcome, everyone. Backstage of Theater of the Mindset. I'm your kind and generous DM, Justin Girardeau. And this week, I am backstage frantically looking for all of my notes that I seemingly have misplaced and I'm currently shuffling around on the floor. With us, we have Nick Trager.

Justin: 00:53

Nick, where are you?

Nick: 00:54

I'm actually down the street at the like a popcorn stand, like one of those ones that have like a million different flavors. Oh, nice. But yeah, you can go to all the different ones. I'm trying to make a Chicago mix but the caramel corn is too vanilla y and I'm very upset about it.

Justin: 01:08

That sounds wonderful, but you need to be here backstage, so please hurry up. Shelby Myers, where are you?

Shelby: 01:14

I have found the door to the place under the stage, and I've got one of those fake torches that's just a flashlight and a fan that makes the fabric glow, and I'm exploring under the stage like I'm Indiana Jones.

Justin: 01:26

Love that. And Steve Edinger, where are you?

Steve: 01:30

I am still in my dressing room on the border of a panic attack because my hair just does not look right and I I just can't go out in public like this.

Justin: 01:38

Yeah. Very relatable. Thank you all for We just finished season one of Theater of the Mindset. Everyone, so exciting. Wow.

Justin: 01:50

Wow. Wow. Wow. Act three really hit the ground running. I am super excited to kind of cover a lot of the heavy hitting moments that I wanna discuss.

Justin: 02:00

But first, I want to kind of just throw it out to you all and kind of just ask the high level question of, did you all imagine that we would end up here and kind of where and and how do you feel coming out of this, given where we started at the beginning, just like kind of investigating a little little upstarting uprising in a no town back country road. Does that phrase make sense?

Shelby: 02:31

I mean, how everything that was gonna happen. I feel like I knew it was gonna come down to either killing the king or something. I don't think I necessarily knew I was gonna try to just completely eliminate that soul from existence.

Justin: 02:56

Mhmm. Yeah. I I

Steve: 03:01

early on, you know, there was always a little bit of conflict even if not directly between Harry and Lucan. A little conflict brewing between Council of Faith and the Senate, Harry's designs for the Senate versus Lucan's like devotion to the Church of Boz and you know, place within within that entity. I had no clue at any point how we were going to progress through that story without it turning into like Lucan and Harry just having some kind of like true schism that I think we would have figured it out, but just from the like above the table playing perspective, like, how do you have two characters who have at the outset diametrically opposed views of how like society should work? I had no prediction for where we gonna end up there but I'm really happy with how all of that progress especially through the third act as you know, decisions had to be made and were made.

Nick: 03:58

Yeah. I think we started knowing that it was going to be political intrigue which like is a specific in a genre but it's not specific in any amount of story which is Right. Fun. And so like I think we did a we started off with some really interesting I think characters that had just tons of runway. I think between having an outsider in Sara and having two very different insiders with Lucan and Harry.

Nick: 04:31

I think I definitely didn't expect or didn't have any concept of exactly where we go. Obviously, there's you know, left turns on left turns but I think I felt really confident. I was just like, oh, we've got like the scene the stage is set so well, not to make a pun on backstage, but it is set so well for like a very good

Shelby: 04:56

conflicts. And I think, like, to piggyback on that, just like Justin did such a good job of listening to the seeds that we were laying that we didn't necessarily know that we were planting seeds when we were doing things, and then just like tying those up in ways that were unexpected was just so fun.

Justin: 05:19

Yeah. I think a great example of that is just the towers and flowers, which was like an offhand comment in episode one, becomes this huge symbol both with like an interaction between Luke and and Baaz, and then just like having the Towers and Flowers piece in Harry's pocket when it all goes down at the senate. From just like an offhand comment. Right? Like, you made up this this game, the strategic board game, and I was like, oh, perfect.

Justin: 05:51

Let's let's take that and run with it.

Shelby: 05:53

It's like a true lesson in symbolism, you know? It was like really great.

Steve: 05:59

When are we starting our Kickstarter for the home play version of Towers and Flowers.

Justin: 06:04

Yeah. Yeah. I don't wanna have to go back

Justin: 06:05

and listen to my improv rules and get

Shelby: 06:08

the sense of that.

Steve: 06:09

The thing is, don't know if we really improv'd a lot of rules. Yeah.

Justin: 06:14

You're right. You're right.

Justin: 06:16

Think you bring up kind of a thing that I wanna spend a little bit of time talking about, which is kind of from our initial sit down session zero inception of your characters, kind of taking a minute and going around the room and kind of taking the time to really talk about, from that moment to where your character ended, how do you kind of envision the differences between what your initial idea was and kind of what the end product is. Because I think, for me, nothing is real until it kind of comes out in the podcast.

Justin: 06:53

And so, you can

Justin: 06:54

have this idea of like, oh, I want a, b, and c. And then as you start playing them, find, oh, actually they're l, r, and like milk. You know, like, they're nothing like what I really envisioned. But, I would love to kind of hear a little bit about each of your characters' kinds of inceptions to final product and how what worked, what didn't, and kind of what really shined?

Nick: 07:16

I'll go first because I'm I can't answer this question well because I don't I think if I failed on anything is I don't think Harry changed that much. I think Harry was bullet train the entire show a little bit. I think at most, I think we set out the two things I knew about Harry were senator that wants more power for the senate and believes in this like more egalitarian thing, thinks a small council and a king is fucked and then has a mild complication that his nephew is the king. And like I didn't know how much the the nephew as king would actually come up when it came time to play. But like obviously, I knew there was gonna be some family stuff.

Nick: 08:02

But I like I actually Justin and recorded the postlude sort of bit separate a little bit later and like Harry is still on that train a little bit and at at some point he's going to crash and burn and burn out so hard because I think, yeah, he like started on this like man on a mission. And so I I yeah. Not not tons and tons of changes but I think really like and I think it helped me a lot as a player to really know what Harry's goals were. Mhmm. I think I like Harry knew what he wanted, Harry knew who was after and I think stayed pretty consistent with it.

Nick: 08:37

So that's a an answer of oops, I didn't do that. But

Justin: 08:41

I mean, I what I loved about playing with Harry at the table was that you were kind you were kind of constantly always adapting to the ever changing story around you and that's what was changing about Harry. Like, you didn't go into this thinking, oh, I'm going to have to adjust for like a fake king. Like, I didn't you you weren't planning on going into this being like, I'm going to hold a knife to the throat of the gods. Like, this Yep. That wasn't your degree of plan but you held to your character's views and then adjusted those views based on that that scenario.

Justin: 09:23

So, I would say Yeah. Harry did change Yeah. Even if his he's an adult. Like adults change a But lot less in their I think Harry changed did change his goals even if they the principles remained the same.

Nick: 09:40

Yeah. I think that's true and I think I think the best like imagery I can think of is either like, you talk about plumbing like water goes wherever it's gonna go, you could force it to move or like a plinko from Like Harry was on a trajectory. He was he's going to end up down there somewhere. And then Justin or the world or the universe kept throwing like, yeah, what about this? And Harry's like, I'm still headed that direction.

Nick: 10:05

I will dance around these pieces to make that work. But yeah, that's great. Love that.

Shelby: 10:11

Sara definitely changed a lot.

Steve: 10:13

Huge. Yeah.

Shelby: 10:13

Huge change.

Justin: 10:14

Yeah.

Shelby: 10:15

Yeah. I knew at the beginning that that was kind of her journey, was discovering who she was. And I started very much in a place where traps between two worlds is being a ward and so having these roots and this magic that she didn't understand, but then also having a culture that didn't accept her. And just kind of, I think ultimately the arc and the story that she followed, this almost feels just like this is part one of Sara, is kind of how I see it.

Justin: 10:48

Yeah.

Shelby: 10:48

That I think, you know, if I imagine where she's going, this was the stage one for Sara evolution as a person. I think that in stage one, it was her discovering the whole time she's like trying to find people that she trusts and like constantly asking questions, constantly second guessing herself, constantly being mad because she feels like she doesn't have all the information and she feels like people are hiding things from her. So she has this lack of self respect, honestly, because she's constantly leaning on these other people to validate her. And the moment that switches for her is when she after after the fight on the Hill Of Faith Mhmm. And she like summons the bat creature and she kills Imogen and all this.

Shelby: 11:41

That very much that moment with Aminette felt like that kind of turning point And then she has that talk with Harry after she communes with Aminette and that is the moment that she stops leaning on other people and she starts making choices for herself. And I noticed like throughout the combat, all of a sudden, Sara is like, telling people what to do and she's taking charge and she's kind of leading in that moment. And that ultimately, what it came down to was Sara made the decision to release the incarnate king. And nobody told her to do that, nobody confirmed that that was the right decision. She just knew this is what I'm gonna do.

Nick: 12:24

Mhmm.

Shelby: 12:25

And so I see, you know, if I think about her, you know, her becoming the what was it? The witch of sand and fire Yeah. Which was just epic and awesome. And so now I see her, you know, we find out at the end that Sara is like kind of on a mission for Asher kind of and it's loose of what that means. And I think ultimately where she's headed is to take care of the nothing.

Shelby: 12:53

Because if the incarnate soul is the thorn in the side of the nothing, now we have to deal with the nothing. Yeah.

Steve: 13:01

The ever existential

Nick: 13:03

dread of the nothing.

Shelby: 13:04

Right. The the climate change that's Yeah. All of us.

Justin: 13:11

Yeah. I I think Sara really had a lot of, like, little mini each arc kind of had a a moment for Sara to really kind of self assess some things and kind of put her at a kind of a not a tipping point necessarily, but generally, like, at a crossroads where her magic was tested or kind of her goals were tested. And here in this final space, I think your choice of consistently referring to it as, like, freeing the soul, I think, was a great choice because it was, Sara said, this is the narrative that I am I am going to choose and set forth for myself and for this person. It wasn't a it was like a whole decision that Sara held onto for herself. And, I think you really swung for the the full I don't know the word Swung for the

Nick: 14:25

You can do it.

Shelby: 14:25

The fences?

Justin: 14:26

Thank you. I have to swing for

Justin: 14:28

the fences on that.

Shelby: 14:29

Baseball? Yeah.

Justin: 14:30

And yeah. I thought it was great. A a really exciting moment for sure.

Steve: 14:37

Yeah. A great moment of personal growth for Steve is that he did not jump to fill in fences for Justin. Yeah.

Justin: 14:44

Thank you.

Justin: 14:44

Thank you. I was gonna get there. I'm not confident.

Justin: 14:47

I don't

Steve: 14:47

I don't know.

Justin: 14:48

That's true. I'm confident I

Justin: 14:49

was gonna get there.

Steve: 14:51

When I think back to my initial conception of Lucan and kind of what we talked about, like setting the stage for, where Lucan was gonna fit in the world. I think my perception of him was going to be much more, I think what you'd say, like traditional like, like holy warrior who's like pretty devout to all of this, you know, to his faith. Doesn't ask a ton of questions, doesn't want to mess with that structure. And when the cult got introduced, I think in my head it was going to be a little bit of like his main temptation was going to be like, do these cultists have something to offer him? You know, is there, you know yeah.

Steve: 15:37

Just like temptation in that way. It quickly became something different, I think, for Lucan because that very first arc in Chardinwick being confronted with oppression, being confronted with a direct conflict between what he was ordered to go do and the consequences of that order quickly pivoted to, oh, the folks in charge here just do not see what I'm seeing. The folks in charge of this church are yeah. They're blind. They're not bad people.

Steve: 16:11

Well, some of them kind of were. But it became much more of a, like, where is Lucan's place in all of this as opposed to, like, is Lucan going to be tempted away by this other entity? And so if anything, I was concerned, especially back during arc one, that I gave in too quickly. Like, I did not I did not hold on to that initial conception of like, no, I am part of this church and I want the church to advance. Like, it took one, you know, set of confrontation with, like, the urnation folks and like the oppression and the hunger strike for they're gonna be like, yeah, fuck that.

Steve: 16:53

The like this we can't be supporting this. Right? Yeah. And I I think that took the character, at least for me, in a much more interesting direction to play. Mhmm.

Steve: 17:03

It you know, back to what I talked about like my first kind of run on this episode. It gave me a way to make the potential conflict with Harry much more interesting as opposed to just two people butting heads. And it gave Lucan a lot to work with with with Sara in terms of, like, you know what is right, Lucan. Like, you know that how the urnation focus is being treated is unacceptable. And it gave us, you know, something to latch onto for our characters to to go through, if not together.

Steve: 17:38

Like it gave Lucan a a place in that a little bit.

Nick: 17:43

Yeah. Yeah. I I would jump in and also like it made the potential like Lucan and Harry which ended up being a very soft like nice tender Absolutely. Yeah. But like it made that way more interesting than power versus power.

Steve: 17:56

Right.

Nick: 17:56

Yes. Lucan had gone through that change of I'm on the inside and now the outside is fucked and I'm trying to like walk some third path. So you had a nuanced path there as opposed to just like continuing to argue which yeah, makes it a a more interesting story.

Steve: 18:14

And it didn't boil down to Harry, you're making me pick between your vision for things and my mentor, Archon Felix, is infallible. Like Yeah. We know from the first time he's on screen that Felix is fallible. I don't

Justin: 18:28

know what you're talking about.

Nick: 18:31

Here's a corny thing that I hadn't a corny thing that I might delete from the this podcast if I don't like the way it sounds. It is like, I had not thought about this but there is a very body heart mind body mind soul between the three pcs in this show. In like I think Lucan is deeply like a just call it body heart mind body mind soul of Venethar itself of this like the religious grouping like this sort of body of people sort of a thing. I think Sara Shelby was the heart of the story and there's like huge character individual growth there and I think Harry was of the mind of it. Mhmm.

Nick: 19:13

And like, how do I how do I weasel through these things? How do we solve these problems ever like, the number of times that Shelby slash Zara went, what do

Justin: 19:21

we do Harry? Like, it's like that is

Nick: 19:23

like a is like that thing. I think that's actually really interesting and I hadn't considered the like Yeah. That that's interesting. Yeah. Unintentional.

Nick: 19:33

Unplanned.

Justin: 19:36

I do like that. I kind of going into the creating of this plot line, I had a couple of visions for myself. And one of them was the this was kind of like the an ode to kind of what friendship has represented in my life specifically and how

Justin: 20:01

which

Justin: 20:01

is why I wanted the cast to be close friends who eventually have found themselves in a position of power, which I think puts an interesting puts interesting options and spins on just just political intrigue. And I think it it created wonderful opportunities like some of the conversations that Harry had, honestly, with all of the PCs and and Asher, that were more than just, hey, you're, you know, the king or you're the prelate or you're like an important witch, but also like, you're a friend of mine and I trust you and we have history and I can speak to that. And I think in a way that an artist can truly only dream of, it's it's nice to having listened to some of these final episodes and hear that desire for that ode to friendship kind of ring true a little bit. The the individual strengths that each person, I think, brings can easily be filtered through that lens of like, the body, the mind, the heart and dare I say Asher being the soul

Justin: 21:21

as Not anymore. Not anymore.

Justin: 21:23

Was he ever? Speaking of, if I can do a self insert, I had no intention of Asher being a hothead.

Nick: 21:35

Argued against it. You said, no he's not.

Justin: 21:37

What are you talking about? I was distinctly surprised when an accusation of Asher being a hothead was first thrown out. Was like, what are you talking about? And then you guys all started laying out literal receipts of like, oh, he did this when this happened and then he did that and then he yelled and I was like

Nick: 21:55

He he Darth Vader force choked a woman. The the thing they do to show how evil Vader is in the first ten seconds on screen, Asher does.

Steve: 22:05

So, your choices were then either he's a hothead or he did it like with premeditation because he thought it was the right thing to be doing.

Justin: 22:13

I think as as the person playing Yeah. Sure, I stand by my choices

Justin: 22:19

for him.

Justin: 22:19

Because not because I distinctly think of him as a hothead, but because I think of him as this person who has been pressed upon time and time and time again that he is, like, that he needs to have the people and his position of power at the forefront of his mind at all times. And then when he finds himself in a position where something is directly opposed to what he knows to be good, in a world where he is a sorcerer and, like, has essentially a nuke that he can fine tune and say, only destruction here, I think he's going to naturally want to take advantage of that. I think that really came out in the maybe not the Force choke scene. That was maybe a bit more hot headed. But the scene on in the Capitol, in the Attack on the Hill of Faith, when he is like getting close to burning himself out because he is or flaring himself out because he is willing to push himself as far as possible.

Justin: 23:26

Also, shout out to just just the excellent level of the production value that you bring Nick. The the scenes feel great without it. I think we all really bring that action to life. But when you put underneath the scoring and the sound effects, I do love that there canonically, I guess, is an ambulance in Oh, yeah. Siren tone.

Justin: 23:51

Like, it uses the same siren tones that we use specifically here in The US.

Nick: 23:55

Hey, it works.

Justin: 23:56

It's very funny to me and yeah, I canonically can't wait to justify that someday.

Nick: 24:03

That is a thing I've had to like everything is decisions, right? You're just making with all Yeah. Of You just have to. And so there is shorthands are necessary. Yeah.

Nick: 24:16

Like and so finding that out through scoring and editing which is in doing all these sound effects stuff is which the first time I've ever done it. And so having to make the call of like, yes, is it a little silly if you spend a lot of time thinking about there being an ambulance? We've not talked about cars, we've not talked about this Yeah.

Justin: 24:32

For sure.

Nick: 24:33

But the shorthand of it being tucked back there

Justin: 24:36

Yeah.

Nick: 24:36

If you don't think about it or if it's drawn too much attention is stress and anxiety and worry Yeah. For the listener, I think. Yeah. As someone who like, you know, listened to it walking, was like, oh, yeah yeah yeah. I'm not clocking the ambulance every time but it's coming every 30 and it's Yeah.

Nick: 24:52

And it's that whole episode theoretically should be just a little stressful and tense to listen to. Yeah. And like the same thing with like chugging strings the whole time. That whole episode, that whole battle is the same tempo and the same like super driving thing and it just feels like it doesn't stop the whole time. It's really fun.

Nick: 25:10

Anyway, so yes, it is silly some of the things that make it in but you're just like sometimes you just have to use the shorthand. Right? Yeah. Like you just have to like communicate it as fast as possible. Exist for a reason.

Shelby: 25:20

Yeah. I say that a lot. Yeah. Say

Justin: 25:25

Asher or Asher says god a lot.

Shelby: 25:28

Yeah. I'm

Justin: 25:29

really glad that there

Justin: 25:29

could be gods

Shelby: 25:31

if there's a curse

Justin: 25:32

at all to that. I Developing the world. Yeah. I specifically did wanna call it also in that scene, the way you summoned your first golem by like tapping bricks.

Justin: 25:43

Yeah. Was such a because

Justin: 25:46

we had leveled up and I had I had not asked what everyone had picked up as a part of that level so it was a surprise to me. And I loved having Asher like mimic your own spell back at you. One one out.

Justin: 25:59

Yeah. Mimic my ass. A lot

Nick: 26:02

of fun. Totten head. No. That was a very fun scene and that was like kind of out of nowhere. Yeah.

Nick: 26:09

I remember us about to like finishing the episode of Harry in a bar, Sara checking in with the soup kitchen folks and Lucan going to show off his new tattoo.

Shelby: 26:24

The handprint. Yeah.

Justin: 26:25

I

Nick: 26:26

a thought that funny joke.

Shelby: 26:30

Fine. Let's rerecord that. Let's

Justin: 26:32

go Let's go back.

Nick: 26:33

Fine. I'll just, yeah, I'll I'll super cut in and laugh. But I I think, yeah, we'd had I don't think that fight was planned at all, if I remember correctly, Justin.

Justin: 26:42

Correct. I just remember being like, wow, nothing's happening. I'm gonna spend a few to make something happen. Let's And you made a huge thing

Nick: 26:51

where he's gonna face Isarn. Yeah.

Justin: 26:54

I guess

Nick: 26:54

that's I guess that's the thing that's happening.

Justin: 26:56

Yeah. I think definitely by act three, since we had at that point probably been playing Daggerheart for, my goodness, seventy two some hours Oh, of actual playtime. We're feeling a lot more comfortable in the system and could just be like, I feel like they've talked enough. I'd like to play a fear now and just amp up zero to 60 the action that is happening is is really enjoyable. Speaking of action that is happening, I forgot it in the moment, and then I also forgot it in the re listen, Harry and the Light Knife.

Justin: 27:39

Oh. Oh, yeah.

Justin: 27:41

In the re listen to, I was equally surprised.

Nick: 27:44

If only he had any skills

Justin: 27:47

with Marshall's stuff.

Nick: 27:48

That was the most disappointing role for me the entire season.

Steve: 27:53

The planning was incredible. The execution. Yeah. Yeah.

Justin: 27:57

Just a little desperate bastion unfortunately still has a one up on Harry physically.

Nick: 28:03

Yeah. But we didn't want it didn't take long for me to take care of him though.

Justin: 28:06

Yeah. That's true. It was a great use of the runic circle or the magic circle.

Nick: 28:11

Harry Yeah. Harry just wants people to leave him alone and go away. Yeah. He just

Justin: 28:17

how Connie felt too afterwards after that. Yeah. See progress. He just immediately went into I think I really amped up Connie's

Steve: 28:25

I was gonna say, you put Connie up to 10. Connie immediately

Justin: 28:30

pivoted hard after that traumatic experience and really needed coddled a little bit. Yeah.

Nick: 28:34

That was really fun. I had no I truly I might have I think I cut this out of the episode but I was tossing tossing around going into that whole thing. I was like, yeah, wanna go talk to Connie about switching up the bill and all this stuff. And then I was just like, or do I need to go talk to the first senator and like, Justin said, oh, do you wanna go talk to Connie with like a shitty like shit eating green like and so like we did the first senator with Olin Pennery or whatever and with that which was an awesome scene and really fun and then went to go see Connie and like the I I said out loud and yeah, think I it got removed. Am I gonna have to fucking kill Connie?

Nick: 29:17

Is truly yeah. That was truly where I was just like, fuck. Like, I I'm going to go find the out that Connie's Kissertia Stodius Anguis and has been at it for fucking decades and I'm gonna have go kill this man.

Steve: 29:27

You might have had like player revolt.

Nick: 29:29

Yeah. If

Justin: 29:30

you made us if anything

Steve: 29:32

bad had happened to Connie, that wasn't like of his own Connie ness.

Justin: 29:38

Yeah. Not not nearly to the point that Beanie, I think, would gotten the the revolt because she truly was the most treasured NPC. I loved the behind the scenes things just for me of like, are Beanie and Jack a thing?

Nick: 29:55

What happened?

Justin: 29:56

Were they doing together that evening that they were I know Harry like sent them out, but like, they were doing something together that evening that they just happened to be she didn't answer that question. No one spoke to Phil. He asked her but she probably wouldn't have answered it anyway.

Steve: 30:11

She's allowed to have a life outside of work. Okay?

Justin: 30:13

She had interest before then but now she's like a busy head of a department. So, more to come.

Nick: 30:22

Jack didn't get a lot of screen time but everything every scene that Jack was in was funny.

Justin: 30:26

Yep. Sure.

Nick: 30:27

Every moment Jack was in was funny. Yeah.

Justin: 30:29

Same with Glenn. Shout out to Glenn. Glenn. My favorite troop member. Yeah.

Nick: 30:35

I I think that Glenn is probably my NPC MVP for arc three.

Justin: 30:41

Yeah. Yeah.

Nick: 30:42

Yeah. The most surprised I was by Justin playing

Justin: 30:46

Same.

Nick: 30:46

That NPC.

Justin: 30:47

Same. Yeah. The exception of the one NPC, the no named assassin who tried to assault you in the in the alleyway who thought about calling Sara a bitch.

Justin: 31:00

Then back for just like Oh, I

Shelby: 31:05

tackled in my car listening.

Justin: 31:07

Yeah. It's so it's so good. You could hear me and Justin getting close to saying the word and then being like

Justin: 31:15

Oh my god.

Justin: 31:15

No, I don't feel comfortable that and then you just bouncing on it, bouncing on it. It was so good.

Steve: 31:22

So good. Oh, jeez. I like that that is like the line we do because there is a line, I think it's the last episode where I say son of a biscuit.

Justin: 31:30

I later call someone a bitch, like it didn't there were definitely modes, but I think that character in then felt the menacing look that Sara was giving. That character

Nick: 31:43

came in hot with power

Justin: 31:45

Yeah.

Nick: 31:46

Everything went wrong for

Justin: 31:47

them Yeah.

Nick: 31:47

From the moment they quote unquote stepped into view. Yeah. Yeah. Literal literally like fireball repudiated Yeah. Grasped with vines, like nothing like Yeah.

Nick: 31:57

Accomplished nothing that they thought they were going to do. And so like, I think that is a good sign of them like going like, I'm confident. I believe in this. I'm less confident. Yeah.

Nick: 32:09

Exactly. Less confident. Yeah.

Justin: 32:11

It was a very funny pivot. Another good example of I'm gonna use fear to hopefully ramp up the the scene. It ramped up in a way. Yeah. In a in a fashion, things got more exciting.

Nick: 32:25

Yep. Yeah. By the end of that, Harry's just like looking at his phone like, where are these fucking guards? Like, that's

Justin: 32:32

how Harry's ending this scene.

Justin: 32:33

Which is,

Nick: 32:33

again, just telling you, like, Harry doesn't wanna fight. Harry's just like, where where are the big strong guys? Like, what the what the fuck is happening?

Steve: 32:39

Your next bill is gonna be addressing response times for emergency.

Justin: 32:48

There were so many just like I in contrast to the other acts, and, like, logically so, like, act three just had so much more action that was, like, a direct result of a lot of the choices you guys had made leading up to that. We had built, like, a pretty cool Resinium City environment that allowed both me as the director GM and you as players to always have something to kind of look to to spend some hope on. You guys all got cool items in this arc that allowed you to kind of take some big narrative swings. Yeah. I think overall, we were just kinda like really playing around with the system in a way that we could not do in act one at all.

Steve: 33:35

Mhmm. Yeah. A 100%. Yeah.

Nick: 33:37

Yeah. Even I mean, like, even the quote unquote downtime was moving because like I think and this is we talked about this when we were recording of just like, okay, final arc like this is everything wraps up. Like everything is happening now because everyone's bad guys uncovered. Yeah. We're Harry's made for sure Mhmm.

Nick: 33:58

Like by Bastion at the end of arc two. It I can't remember if that's the of arc two or

Justin: 34:02

Yeah. Think so.

Nick: 34:04

And so like officially Harry Harry is is now now known known by by like like setting setting Sangwish as like fucking around with their shit. And so like everything there are no more secrets. Like there are are obviously plenty of secrets but like everything's you know, the cans opened. Yeah. Which is really fun and so like even the downtime stuff is really intense because you're still plotting and trying to make sense of stuff.

Nick: 34:27

Speaking of the items, I think Luken going Super Saiyan is what is still one of my favorite.

Shelby: 34:32

Oh, yeah.

Nick: 34:33

It's just like just the most OP fun thing. Yeah. It still felt good too. Like it wasn't

Justin: 34:38

Yeah.

Nick: 34:38

OP in a bad way.

Steve: 34:39

I in those moments and even listening back, even with that hand of change, you know, that one time use I had, I didn't feel like Lucan was a 100% out of the woods. Yeah. Like, it didn't feel until till Isarn was dead Mhmm. Did not feel like that was a like auto win button. Yeah.

Steve: 35:00

And that was I was genuinely like nervous playing that

Nick: 35:06

Yeah.

Steve: 35:06

For Lucan. Not in the sense of like, that I would be like unprepared if it went south or like not know where to go. Wouldn't have but we're improving so that's part of it. Yeah. But like the tension in that entire episode was

Nick: 35:23

Yeah.

Steve: 35:23

Like honestly the most I have felt invested in a tabletop campaign Yeah. In my years of doing this.

Nick: 35:31

Yeah. Which like I think separating us the PCs Yeah. I think added to that tension. There's no one coming to save anyone kind of like Mhmm. Particularly for you guys.

Nick: 35:40

Obviously, I'm there with Asher and 40 dudes but for the two of you, you're out on your own trying to solve these problems. And so you go down.

Justin: 35:50

Yeah.

Nick: 35:50

There's no cleric around the corner coming to solve it for you.

Justin: 35:55

I had kind of shared the items that I'd created online. I'd shared them online. And people I got a lot of really good feedback and then people had said that the the Hand of Change, the Avatar of Change item was too strong. But there's I would I would I I counter in my head knowing my campaign and like knowing the story you were telling and I'm like thinking to my in in my head, like, the problems I'm putting in front of my PCs are nigh impossible to solve without this level of me saying yes and to whatever you want to do. Right?

Justin: 36:42

Giving you a potential for five crits isn't that big of a deal when the problem is you're fighting 40 dudes by yourself and one of them is immune to magic.

Steve: 36:57

Like, you gave me five crits for a six crit problem. Like

Justin: 37:01

And also, at the end of it, do you wanna save one to maybe save your god? Like Right.

Steve: 37:06

Yeah. Because there was more to it than just the combat encounter.

Justin: 37:09

Right.

Steve: 37:10

Right? Like and like you said, an item is only overpowered if you don't put a sufficient challenge

Joel (Credits): 37:16

Yes.

Steve: 37:17

In front of the person using that item. Yeah. Like, you have control over how that goes.

Nick: 37:21

Yeah. That's a that's a really boring combat if all three of us are just standing around fighting if

Justin: 37:29

it's just a combat of who can get their eight the other person the other team's HP down to zero

Nick: 37:34

Yeah.

Justin: 37:34

Then I would argue that like, is that really the combat that is like a arc three combat at this point? That's like an arc one combat. Like HP is when that matters. You want arc three combats to be about, I'm trying to get your HP down to zero. You guys are trying to accomplish something before that happens.

Justin: 37:53

That should be how Arc three feels. Like, which is I mean, I definitely stole, you know, how many different medias are there, like people jumping out of the airplane into the zone. But like, I thought that felt cool as fuck. Yeah. Definitely start things off with you guys like landing and being like, okay, we've got a limited amount of time.

Justin: 38:15

It's just the two of us. Go go go go go.

Nick: 38:20

Yeah. Yeah.

Shelby: 38:21

I got real worried. I thought I died there.

Justin: 38:23

Yeah. Almost died.

Justin: 38:27

Dagger Heart I I have brushed up on my Dagger Heart death rules. They're not as simple as I would like them ultimately to be, but once you really think about, they they do come down to to pretty simple things. But they're not it's not an easy decision and it is pretty frightening.

Nick: 38:43

What was what was cut around you almost dying was me and Steve absolutely razzing the shit out of Justin who had been whining and complaining for the previous two days about not having enough fear. And then promptly killed a PC.

Justin: 39:00

Yeah. Well, how about fears?

Nick: 39:05

I I have yeah. I

Justin: 39:07

yes. You know, sometimes sometimes your monsters, your adversaries are fear suckers and sometimes they're fear generators and Yep.

Nick: 39:15

Yep. That's

Justin: 39:17

that's the way it happens.

Nick: 39:19

No. That was a really good, like very tense scene and it worked out worked out great. Yeah. But yeah. Huge.

Justin: 39:25

Yeah. I think really everyone had such good tense moments and really made all of the characters feel grounded in their final decisions. Even if they're still like I like, I have exciting bits of information now and and pieces to the next puzzle on on future seasons. You know, what is what's it mean that the gods have had their faith withheld from them for a period of time? Like this Venetharan theocracy government is changing its tune a little bit, and how do gods who are used to having their the ability to meddle directly into the affairs of mortals, how will they respond to that kind of scenario?

Justin: 40:17

What does the birth of a new witch mean? How does god getting the how does a god getting the domain of change influence their behavior? I have peek behind the screen thought that maybe Ba'az will start to see like a lot more lycanthropes start to follow

Steve: 40:41

Oh, the wow. Yeah.

Justin: 40:43

That's that's awesome. That would like correspond with change.

Nick: 40:47

Hashtag new class from Dagger Heart.

Justin: 40:49

Right? Yeah. Transformations coming out with Dagger Heart feels like very well timed on for me. Yeah.

Nick: 40:59

That's cool.

Justin: 40:59

Yeah. I like it was coming out of it, I going into season one, wanted the end of season two to have a very clear jumping jumping off point for future seasons, and I definitely feel like I I feel like I've got that. I think Harry's final words about like, you know, this is the story we have to write feels and rings very true.

Nick: 41:23

Well, it's it's very fun. I actually did I'll turn a question on to you Justin that you kind of posed to us. Did the season land or end where you thought it was going to? Like obviously you had a roadmap. Obviously, PCs fuck your shit up all the time but Yeah.

Nick: 41:39

Like did you foresee the end of a theocracy or, you know, any of these things coming down the pike at you? I mean Did you see Asher not being the king by the end of this or at least for this reason? Full disclosure, no.

Justin: 41:56

I I really thought that the season would end with you all freeing, not in like a kill kind of way, but free in a, hey, we're breaking you free, the true incarnate king. But then, the rest is up to you and, like, letting the incarnate king go. And then, potentially splitting the party and being like, I could see Harry and Lucan saying, no. We have to stay with Asher and, like, uphold this king and Sara going with the true incarnate king and like, potentially being like, no, we're gonna lead a rebellion.

Nick: 42:42

Yeah. Yeah. You initially had mentioned potential like civil war as

Justin: 42:47

Yeah. Being Right.

Nick: 42:48

Like the next season after.

Justin: 42:49

Yeah. That that spoilers. That I had felt like a like a very real possibility, like a civil war. But with the incarnate king, like, fully dying and being released, that spell kind of ending, and Asher being a hothead and just, like, kind of going at it and kind of ending that that line. We now have this spot where the gods are feeling tense in their positions.

Justin: 43:18

And so it's a different kind of civil war. Maybe not civil war, but there's a different kind of tension in the air. Yeah.

Nick: 43:27

It's not Vinithar centric anymore. Yeah. It's not this country split. This it's like a, oh, the world just got weirdly ly fucked. Yeah.

Nick: 43:34

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Steve: 43:35

Like the foundations of how this world understands itself to work is no longer certain. Right? Like Yeah.

Shelby: 43:41

How does magic work now?

Justin: 43:43

Yeah. Yeah.

Nick: 43:46

That was one of my favorite choices that I got to make was to pitch the idea of like asking people to not to withhold a resource from gods.

Justin: 43:58

Yeah.

Nick: 43:58

That was like I think one of my biggest swings and my favorite like fuck your shit up Justin Yeah. Moments. I loved it. It was so fun to do. It felt so crazy.

Nick: 44:09

It felt wild.

Justin: 44:11

I like it it but from my perspective, like I love those kinds moments. Like, as the kind of DM that I am, in general, I will always accept those kinds of big swings in the right moments and I think that is Sure. Like, here then, that was totally the right moment, you know. If we're episode one or two or like or session one and two of a of a home game, that is not the moment to be like, really throwing my shit up. Yeah.

Justin: 44:43

Like, please, we have a goal here in mind. But in the last fourth of a campaign, I would hope for any player to always feel empowered to be making the decisions for their characters. Like, Lucan being in a position to do you want, like, Ba'az to have change? What does change mean within the context of religion? For Sara, like, what does the future of the Ur nation hold?

Justin: 45:16

Is there does justice need to be met out? I think there's an argument to be made that, like, is did Sara, like, seek a little bit of that by, like, like, the I wanted you to have these kind of big swing moments on what to do with this person. And Harry, just like, what is the future of this this kingdom? Like, I want you to feel empowered to make those swings and then give me months to decide for the next campaign. So that you can be new characters and then like have your own reactions to your own decisions.

Justin: 45:53

I

Nick: 45:55

think that was the arc three in particular was the most I feel like I have had as a PC, as a player, agency in a story truly of just like, okay, like stage is set at this point and like we're bringing ideas to the table and just big decisions and moving the story in a way that I don't think I've ever had the opportunity. I don't if that's true of you guys.

Shelby: 46:20

Yeah. No. I felt that. And I think also just like Sara's arc as a character also reflected a lot of Shelby's arc as a player. And just like me getting comfortable of like fucking other people's shit up and like, you know, I think that a lot of the beginning of it was me worried that a choice I made is gonna fuck something else up for somebody else and I'm gonna mess with it in some way and then by the end of it, it was a lot of just like me as a person realizing that like, that's part of it.

Shelby: 46:55

That's the story that You we're need to make those choices in order to make it interesting. And so, yeah, it was just like a lot of personal growth and I it's been really fun listening to it back and I'm like, oh, if I ever get a chance to do this again, now I'm like, I I feel a lot more confident that I can like Yeah. Do some shit, you know.

Steve: 47:15

I think for me, like, it took though that first arc to gain not just that confidence, like with the dagger heart rule system, but like to learn what the boundaries of this world

Justin: 47:27

were

Steve: 47:27

so we knew where we could push against them effectively and Yeah. Knew what was like interesting fucking with the story or interesting bold decision making versus like what Justin was saying before. It's like maybe episode two don't like like don't knock down the tower. Yeah. But like we also, I think, really quickly, the three players figured out how to play off of each other Mhmm.

Steve: 47:49

Really well. And I think it empowered all of us, as we went through and especially into arc three to understand that like, hey, I trust the other two of you at the table. If you're taking a big swing, I don't necessarily see right off the bat. We're gonna figure it out. Like Yeah.

Steve: 48:04

It's gonna be something interesting.

Nick: 48:05

Which I think the flashback as the first episode, obviously, it doesn't feel low stakes in the back, you know, in hindsight with Sara and Aminette. But like Mhmm. I think we had the opportunity in that first episode to play a low stakes version of ourselves and like take those weird swings and take the like having developing Lugan's personality as he's flirting or trying to like get to know you're all

Steve: 48:30

Flirting so effectively. Yeah. You

Nick: 48:32

know and seeing Asher and like all of this I think is a huge huge rose to that of you know getting us started to then flush out these characters more as we went and flush out the relationship. Yeah. It's really good.

Shelby: 48:47

Yeah.

Justin: 48:50

To kind of close this out, any final any any point in the season, roses that we wanna kind of toss out to each other, I think would be really good. I will just in general toss out the kind of escape from the lighthouse. Yeah. Yeah. I think It's like the whole lighthouse seed feels really fun.

Justin: 49:17

But like, we have Lucan kind of flying out with the with Glen Robinsiner. Yeah. Glen Robinsiner. And he's like kicking his legs, but he he can't teleport because it makes him sick. Like, that's like, to me, fun ways to use fear.

Justin: 49:35

Just be like, it's a silly reason why but it's still a reason why you can't. And then Harry using the teleport to fly the eagles into each other.

Nick: 49:49

Silly.

Justin: 49:49

It was like yeah. Just roses all around. And then, led into like, I think arguably the first, arguably, like the first tense disagreement and argument with all of you and Asher. Just like all of that kind of leading into each other felt really really good.

Nick: 50:10

Mhmm. So good. I I man, because everything that came after The Lighthouse was also just big and intense and I just got done editing the finale, I just somehow forgot about how fun that scene was.

Justin: 50:23

It's very

Nick: 50:23

How big that scene was.

Justin: 50:25

Yeah. It's very fun.

Steve: 50:27

I will say, Rose for me, the at the very end, everything with Sara and Aminette, the stakes on that felt so high the entire time. And I remember at the table, it being one of the times it was most apparent to me of like, if this dice roll doesn't work, where where do we go from here? Like, especially when I'm playing my own character, I have a little bit of a like, if I screw this up, like, here's how I can pivot or like, you know, we can find a path forward. The end stuff with Zara and Aminette, Mhmm. I was so worried for you.

Justin: 51:02

Me too. For sure.

Justin: 51:04

I love that I got to reference back to the art one thing that I took from you.

Justin: 51:10

Yeah.

Justin: 51:10

Uh-huh. Was your like healing. Yeah. Yeah. It I had been, like, sitting on that that failure, I think that success with fear for a little bit and that felt

Shelby: 51:25

because really it was spell cast role

Justin: 51:27

You're so good at rolling

Shelby: 51:29

You were just waiting for me to fail a spell cast role. Yeah. And what a time. That was perfect. Was perfect.

Nick: 51:38

I I actually loved the like and it's not a character. The NPC, Erika Reinhold wasn't like an important PC but just Steve, your choice to go spread a rumor, go like show this like antagonistic new leader of the Church of Boz like that you are basically now the anointed and throw the church into chaos and be like, it's a it's a ballsy fun move and then to be have your wings kind of clipped is just was a very powerful fun. It wasn't a long scene but it like Yeah. Spoke so much to like where Lucan was and the and where you were going because like you're actively fighting and chasing Isarn in the cult of metamorphosis and now you're actively also being antagonistic towards the home church.

Steve: 52:26

Right. Like I had no friends left

Justin: 52:27

Yeah.

Steve: 52:28

Like other than you two. Yeah.

Nick: 52:29

Which is really cool and really interesting. Yeah.

Shelby: 52:33

And then also just Nick's all of the inspirational speeches before going into the final battle and just using that as your bardic inspiration. Just the preparation.

Nick: 52:45

I was up late that day before. It

Shelby: 52:48

paid off.

Nick: 52:49

That was the yeah. I think that that whole thing was the first thing we did that day and I was like, here's three four it's effectively four scenes because I also wrote the address, the like

Shelby: 52:59

Yeah.

Nick: 53:00

Get me on the me on the radio.

Shelby: 53:02

There's always monologues.

Nick: 53:03

Yeah. And I was like, that was fun. That was super

Shelby: 53:05

super Steve and I just sat back and we were

Justin: 53:07

like, damn. Yeah.

Nick: 53:08

It was like because like I don't know that Harry Reid's as bard all the time and so like it was really fun to make sure that I was like bringing back like, oh yeah, this is a bard. Whole ass and how do we explain that sort of

Shelby: 53:20

a thing. But then it really set you up well for that finale Yeah. Because it made your stuff Yeah. Back in the city Yeah. Have so much more weight and importance to it.

Nick: 53:33

It was I honestly in that moment, I feel mildly bad because I think Justin even said when we were recording the vote which is also like just a great scene. You're just like, you at one point tried to pitch me to do a speech and I was like, I don't I've done my speeches. Yeah. And like it just didn't make sense. Like I think Harry had had his moments or whatever.

Nick: 53:53

It had been like out in the thing and so I loved I actually loved, if anyone comes at us about that being a heavy Justin scene, I think it's what it needed to be. Like, I think that's Harry had been moving chess pieces or towers and flowers pieces for days at that point. Yeah. And like, now it's just like, cool. This works or it doesn't.

Nick: 54:11

And if it doesn't

Steve: 54:13

You're not gonna talk anyone into something Yeah. At that point. And like, your speeches had been of escalating

Nick: 54:19

Yes.

Steve: 54:19

Importance and I think we had hit the peak. Yes.

Justin: 54:21

I think we

Nick: 54:22

were Yeah. So you're just waiting for the results of the thing which is really I I felt was really satisfying

Justin: 54:27

Mhmm.

Nick: 54:28

And really enjoyed watching it take place.

Justin: 54:31

Yeah. We had kind of worked collaboratively on many of the scenes there towards the end. It was rarely me being like, alright, I've got the next scene. Let's jump into it. I'm gonna start describing.

Justin: 54:45

We often were like, sitting together at a table kind of discussing where do we feel like the story is taking us collectively. And,

Steve: 54:53

had kind

Justin: 54:53

of waffled on, is the end of this story Asher saying, what have we done? We made a huge mistake. And, it felt like this was the end of the story we had been telling. But, it distinctly does not feel like the end of the story. And I think that that's exciting.

Justin: 55:23

I don't think that this is the last we've seen of any of these characters in at least in some capacity. And with the way that we intend to kind of work this podcast, I am excited to to weave in references to these characters and continue to see what they plan on doing in the future. Because I think they are movers and shakers, and this is not. They are in fact still writing. This is just the beginning.

Nick: 55:51

Yeah. Love it.

Steve: 55:53

Yeah.

Justin: 55:54

Yay. Yeah.

Steve: 55:56

I just this was so much fun.

Shelby: 55:57

It was so fun.

Nick: 55:58

Like, this whole

Steve: 55:58

season was so fun to make.

Justin: 56:00

Yeah. It

Nick: 56:02

It's really exciting. I'm really glad that we started with Faith and Fortune. I'm really glad the way it turned out. Couldn't have predicted by any means. No.

Nick: 56:09

Not at all. Okay. And so now, I mean, we get to sort of announce slash talk about the next season being a much different a big tone shift. Yeah. A big tone shift, if you wanna give a little teaser, Justin.

Justin: 56:23

Yeah. Big tone shift. We're gonna shrink, not to say too much, we're gonna shrink down the story scope quite a lot, focus on a much more localized story, and embrace the themes of summer, I think, little bit, and also change systems. We're gonna go back to good old D and D, just plain fifth edition.

Nick: 56:46

Nope. It's 2024. Guess it was a mix.

Justin: 56:49

Yeah. It's a mix. I think it's a mix. So I guess 5.5 edition.

Steve: 56:54

Know I was

Nick: 56:56

a battle master in 2024 but I

Justin: 56:59

it it

Justin: 57:00

is is is it's a mix. Yeah. Yeah. And just kinda tell like a little bit more of a quote on a non or a more traditional story before we come back to this. But that story will take place before all of this occurred a number of decades prior when Esau was still king Yeah.

Justin: 57:23

And before the custodian sanguis was ever talked about. So

Nick: 57:26

Out loud.

Justin: 57:27

Simply touched. Out loud. But some of these characters, you will have maybe heard of or had been referenced, so they will entirely be strangers. So all exciting. With season two going and returning to D and D, we're doing a camp story.

Justin: 57:44

And so I have spent a lot more time DMing in Dungeons and Dragons. And while I think my theater kid background is more excited about what Gagger Heart is doing, especially here in 2026 and all of the hope and fear stuff that's coming out. I think with D and D, we're gonna be flexing a lot more of system mastery and and using that to our advantage to tell a still a little bit of an alternative story. I kind of called it a traditional campaign, but it's still like it's teenagers at a So, summer not very traditional in that sense. No.

Justin: 58:27

But it is it is it is pure adventurers solving a problem. And so, in that sense, it is a lot more traditional. And I'm excited. A larger cast

Nick: 58:41

Yeah.

Justin: 58:41

With a much bigger group and a lot more 's, I think.

Nick: 58:46

More 's, not saving the world, not

Justin: 58:48

saving the Not saving the

Steve: 58:49

It's not that we did save the world.

Justin: 58:52

Yeah. Yeah. Not dealing

Nick: 58:55

with world ending Right. Stuff. Yeah. It'll It's very fun. I'm I'm excited for everyone to hear it.

Justin: 59:01

Other thing I'll plug, this will be like way in advance, but if you are interested in wildly meeting some of us, we'll be at Gen Con. I will be hosting a Dun or a dagger heart game, Real House Real House Spouses of Bravo Bay on Thursday at 1PM in the J W Room 108. Come say hi. And the table's full, but I'll be there before and afterwards just chatting and plug in theater of the Mindset. And we'll be around at Gen Con, so feel free to add us on Instagram or on any of those things, and we'll be happy to say hi.

Justin: 59:44

All of us are local to Indianapolis. So Gen Con, even if we do not attend Gen Con, Gen Con is just a natural part of our lives, I feel like, if not for just the traffic purposes. So we'll all be out and around, and we'll we'll be there. So yeah. Otherwise Justin.

Justin: 01:00:05

Yeah. Otherwise, follow us on all of your social media platforms. Be sure to give us a like and a review. We would love to see some reviews as we close out the end of this of first season and kick off the second. We are super excited.

Justin: 01:00:18

We've got a ton of of great content remaining for the rest of the year and beyond. So make sure to like, subscribe, and share with a friend. Thanks, y'all.

Nick: 01:00:28

See you.

Justin: 01:00:29

Bye. Bye. Cool.

Nick: 01:00:31

You happy Justin?

Joel (Credits): 01:00:32

You've been listening to Faith and Fortune by Theater of the Mindset. Our actual players this season are Steve Edinger, Shelby Myers, Nick Traeger, and your kind and generous GM Justin Girardeau. Audio engineering post production and scoring is done by Nick Traeger at Studio 3607. If you're enjoying the show, you can help us grow with no capital investment by sharing it with a friend, following us on Instagram and Reddit, writing us a review on your favorite pod catcher, or you can ship in for coffee at our Patreon. Thanks for listening,

Justin: 01:01:02

and we'll see

Joel (Credits): 01:01:03

you next week on Theater of the Mindset.